John M. Dowd Interview 1

1
Oral History of John M. Dowd, Esq.
First Interview
May 29, 2024
This interview is being conducted on behalf of the Oral History Project of The Historical
Society of the District of Columbia Circuit. The interviewer is David Tobin, and the interviewee
is John M. Dowd. The interview took place via Zoom on Wednesday, May 29, 2024. This is the
first interview.
MR. TOBIN:
MR. DOWD:
John, it’s nice to see you, of course. You’re in Cape Cod, Chatham, and I’m
here in Washington, D.C. This is our first session, so I thought I would start
out with noting that both you and I have some Irish heritage, and I believe
there’s even a Tobin in the Dowd familial line. I want to talk a little bit about
your Dowd ancestors and what you know of them coming from Ireland. And if
you don’t mind, John, I’m going to also type some notes while we talk.
The Dowds, then known as O’Dowd, started in County Galway, and I’m told
by my brother Joe that there’s still a pile of rocks there in Galway. The first
concrete information I had was someone named John Dowd, who was in the
fishing business, and in the mid- to late-1800’s made trips to America, and in
Boston he smoked fish, particularly haddock, which was quite plentiful and he
got a flourishing business. When he accumulated enough money, he went back
to Ireland. As you’ll remember, the great famine was underway in the mid- to
late-1800’s. So, John Dowd, I’m told, made eight roundtrips across the Atlantic
to bring relatives over. My father gave me his admission to citizenship to the
United States, which was dated 1899, and that’s the Dowd side that I know of.2
MR. TOBIN:
MR. DOWD:
MR. TOBIN:
MR. DOWD:
The Maguire side is where the Tobins were. My grandmother, Molly
Maguire, was a Tobin before she married John Maguire. The Maguires came
from a little north of Galway.
The Dowds had started, and the one I knew of was Joseph Dowd, who
was my grandfather. He was a carpenter and a bricklayer. He had a thirdgrade education and then rose to be the Superintendent of Public Buildings in
Boston by self-education.
Throughout my childhood we were always very proud to be a large Irish
family. We celebrated St. Patrick’s Day and the fact that we were Irish in
Boston. So that’s where I came from.
Did John settle in the Boston area?
Yes. I believe it was in Charlestown, Massachusetts, part of Boston.
Tell me about your folks and where they fit in the line vis-à-vis John.
Well, I’m not sure. I think John was an uncle or a great uncle, but I’m not
sure. My grandfather was Joseph Dowd, as I said, and my mother was from
the Maguire family, which was very large. They had nine children, and she
was one of the oldest. My grandfather was John Maguire for whom I was
named, I am John Maguire Dowd. He ran a sundry business in Brockton,
Massachusetts, with his brothers, known as the Maguire Brothers, and they
featured their own homemade root beer. It was served cold in a giant sterling
silver bowl, huge, and underneath was ice keeping it nice and cold. I know
people from Rockland who used to go there. He made his own ice3
cream with his brothers. They really did quite well. He supported a family of
nine children and educated about half of them.
So that’s where we started. I got to know all my uncles. My father was the
oldest, I think, of five children. He was raised in Charlestown and Dorchester,
Massachusetts. He had four sisters and a brother. My mother had eight
siblings. They’re all quite remarkable people.
I was born November 2, 1941, at Goddard Hospital in Brockton, MA, just
before the war broke out. I have just the vaguest memories. We lived in
Canton, MA, a neighboring town to Brockton. As I grew up, there were these
gatherings at the house, big meals. I had these uncles, the Maguire boys, with
Jim Maguire, Francis Maguire, Dennis Maguire. They were all in the war. Jim
Maguire landed in the second wave at Omaha Beach in 1944, eighty years
ago, and served all the way through the liberation of Paris and ended up being
frozen and starving at Bastogne. He and the artillery battery and battalion
were rescued by General Patton on that famous Sunday morning.
Uncle Denny was a Naval aviator, and he flew fighter planes. He did
surveillance of the Caribbean looking for Nazi submarines. I did not know,
but they had a lot of U-boats working the waters down there.
Uncle Joe was a merchant mariner. He was older, like Mary’s age. He did
the convoys to England, carrying the troops. He had three ships blown out
from under him, and he survived. It was a miracle. So that’s Joe.
Francis was in the Army Medical Corps and served in the Burma-China
Theater. He would always come home with products from India and Pakistan.4
My grandmother had on her front door windows four stars. These boys
were gone for four years. My dad, who was home, who I’ll talk about in a
minute, would visit her and take her to mass every Sunday. She would be
asked about the boys, and she’d say, “don’t worry, they’ll all be back.” She
had this abounding faith and no self-pity, and by God, they all came back. But
they all came back four years later. We used to see them a lot. Then, in the
1950’s, their brother, Richard Maguire fought in the Korean War.
My dad, when World War II broke out, was older than the rest. I think he
was around 35, and with my birth in November, I was the fourth of what
came to be eight children, so that’s where I was in the pecking order. I was
right in the middle of eight. He joined the Navy. He was 6’6”. He was in good
shape. So, he went down to Connecticut to join the submarine service. They
sent him home saying “you’re too tall. You can’t fit in a submarine.” He really
wanted to get in the fight. Well, he didn’t. He became part of the Navy Supply
Corps. The Navy sent him to Harvard Business School, and his main
responsibility was delivering destroyers to the British Navy. I mean a lot of
destroyers out of the Boston Navy Yard. They were building and refitting
ships there. So, he got to know the Brits very well. But he always felt like he
didn’t do anything. Well yes, he did. He did not have to enlist. At that age,
with that number of children, he was exempt.
We had an uncle by relation whose name was Hamilton D. South, and he
was a Marine aviator. As you may remember, early in aviation, they had these
planes with double wings doing all kinds of acrobatics on the weekend. Uncle
Hamilton and his buddies would fly under the bridges on that river in5
MR. TOBIN:
Cambridge. He was about 5’ 6”. My dad was 6’ 6”, so they did kind of a Mutt
and Jeff routine whenever they were together. He went to war in the Pacific,
and he flew a PBY. He landed his PBY on the beach in Guam. We fought for
Guam, Saipan, and Tinian all at the same time, and he was in that fight. He
landed with the Marines, but he landed in his plane and fought there. I never
learned until later you can reach Tokyo from Guam, and so it was pivotal to
win those islands and put the Japanese on the defensive. So that was Uncle
Ham.
Then there was Dad’s close friend, Jack Delaney. Do you remember the
NBC correspondent named Steve Delaney? Jack was his father. He was in the
construction business. He became a Seabee. Dad said he left right before Pearl
Harbor and was stationed in Hawaii. He landed on and worked on every
island in the Pacific for four years with bulldozers and men, et cetera. On
December 7th, his wife was at the Naval hospital at Pearl delivering Steve
Delaney while the Japanese attacked. She tells the story that he left the
hospital and didn’t come back for three days. She thought he was killed in the
bombing of Pearl Harbor.
So, I’m surrounded by this growing up, and when you’re having these
dinners, all the talk and the stories, et cetera, we’re sitting there like sponges.
Not only eating well but absorbing these incredible stories and personalities.
That’s interesting. You said you’re the fourth of eight. You were born on
November 2, 1941?6
MR. DOWD:
MR. TOBIN:
MR. DOWD:
MR. TOBIN:
MR. DOWD:
Right.
So, a month before Pearl Harbor.
Yes. I’m told it was a very stormy day in Brockton. We were all born at the
Goddard hospital in Brockton, which is right next door to Canton where we
lived. My grandparents were from Brockton, so Mom always went to the
Brockton hospital. There’s one of us who wasn’t born there, but at least the
top six or seven.
Tell me about your siblings.
The oldest is my brother Mike. He was Paul L, Junior, named after my dad,
but my mother said she couldn’t keep track of him so named him Mike. There
was nothing official about it, but his name was Mike. Mike was the oldest
brother, and then there were three in a row. There was Maryanne, my older
sister, and then Joe. I’ll talk about those three above me.
My dad went to Harvard and worked his way through. He never lived
there. His family didn’t have a lot of money, and that’s how he got through.
The emphasis was on hard work and jobs, so that started at home. We
always had chores, and then as we started growing up, I started carrying golf
bags when I was eight years old. Why? Because my brother Joe and my
brother Mike carried golf bags at the Blue Hill Country Club in Canton. And
then Maryanne babysat. So, it was just a tradition. My dad believed in it, and I
tell you what, I think one of the best things that I ever inherited was that7
work ethic. People forget a great education comes, as you know, from the jobs
you have. So, the variety was amazing.
I grew up in Canton and then in Holden, Massachusetts, outside of
Worcester. My dad worked for Filene’s. Coming out of the Navy, he was an
expert in retailing because of the education he got in the Navy. And he worked
for RH Whites, which was a competitor of Filene’s, and went on to Filene’s to
become a merchandise manager. They sent him up to Worcester, which was
in tough shape, to save it, and that became his reputation. He was known as
one of the greatest relief pitchers in the retail business in the area. So, he
saved Worcester’s Filenes.
We lived in Holden for six or seven years. Dad did a great job and came
back to Canton. He had been promised a very senior position at the Boston
store. The Boston store is famous for its basement, Filene’s Basement. The
guys today at Amazon think they can push bargains. They couldn’t stay with
Filene’s this day. Filene’s Basement is still open. It was right down in the
center of Boston.
Back to my brother Mike. He was a terrific student. He went on to get
educated at Harvard. He majored in organic chemistry. He went on to
Columbia where he got a master’s degree in chemistry, and then he got his
PhD in chemistry. He was an assistant professor at Harvard for many years.
When it came time to become a full professor, he said, “John, I couldn’t stand
the politics.” So, he put his resume out, and the University of Pittsburgh
grabbed him. At this time, he was producing original, if you can believe it,8
chemistry work. He discovered how Vitamin B12 reacted in the human body,
which was huge. Vitamin B12 is essential to your bone structure and finding
out how to do it, and for that, he was nominated for a Nobel Prize in
chemistry, which he didn’t get, but it was a tremendous honor. Pittsburgh, they
were smart, as you know as a lawyer from Pittsburgh. He wanted to teach both
undergraduate and graduate, and he was damn good. I remember him showing
us these formulas on the refrigerator door. They gave him his own lab where
he could do his original work.
He was 60. His liver gave out. But he set the pace for all of us for work.
We learned to caddy from him. We learned to work at grocery stores from
him. He excelled in college and university. He was a great chemist and doing
his original work which he was always proud of. He was a good guy. An avid
reader. So that was Mike.
Maryanne was also a good student and a good sister, and because our
family was getting so big, I think I was generally the pain in the ass in the
family. She helped raise me. She was my buddy. I was always getting in
trouble. She was very smart, and she went to Wheaton College in Norton,
Massachusetts, and did very well. She worked on Nantucket as one of the
ladies that keep the rooms at the boarding houses and elsewhere. She babysat
for the wealthy families that we caddied for on Nantucket. She had the same
work ethic. And by the way, no one ever complained. It was great to have
your own money. She ended up marrying a guy named John Deyst who was a
doctor of astrophysics at MIT and at the Draper Laboratory, and that’s where
they built the9
MR. TOBIN:
MR. DOWD:
computers, and he helped build them, to guide the Apollo to the moon and
back. He was part of that. He’s an absolutely brilliant guy. He tells a story
about how the astronauts claimed they could fly it, so they brought it up,
rigged it, and these guys crashed every time. They had to have the computer,
so he became sort of a guidance expert not only for space programs but for
airlines. That famous reactor in Pennsylvania, Three Mile Island, what
happened there was not the nuclear material. It was because the guidance
system was not sophisticated enough. He said that would not happen today
because they solved that based upon the guidance systems they built for the
capsule for NASA. So, he was part of NASA. He was part of the scientific
community that solved nuclear computers. He taught astrophysics at MIT.
And then my brother Joe went first to the public high school, but Dad sent
him one year to prep school and then on to Bowdoin. He did very well at
Bowdoin and then went to the Amos Tuck School at Dartmouth for business
and finance and ended up being a very successful commercial banker. He
ended up representing in Europe, I think it’s the Rothschilds, one of the great
wealthy families of Europe, Joe was their banker.
You mentioned, John, having caddied. I know you caddied on Nantucket.
Where was that club, and what was that like?
It was in Canton. It was the Blue Hill Country Club. It was a beautiful club.
I’ll never forget. I have a terrible habit of carrying a wad of cash. I used to see
these guys pull cash out of their10
pockets and I said someday I’m going to have a wad. I caddied there starting
when I was eight years old.
I was actually 12 the first summer that I went to caddy camp at the
Sankaty Head Golf Course on Nantucket. Mike had been there, and you know,
good old Mike, he worked as a caddy, then he stocked shelves for Ryder’s
grocery store in Nantucket, and then he worked for Sam Swayze, who was
John Cameron Swayze’s brother who was the greenskeeper. So, we all just
followed in his footsteps.
Joe was a caddy master on Nantucket. I remember getting my big trunk
and taking the bus down to Woods Hole and climbing on the boat and going
over there. I caddied until I guess about 17 and then I became an assistant to
the pro. I was part of the dishwashing crew at the club. I became a bartender
at the club, the Sankaty Head Beach club, which was just down the road, that
Joe also ran. So, I caddied on Nantucket. It was a magnificent course, and one
of the highlights of it, one of the guys I caddied for was a guy named Roy
Larson. He was the chairman of Time, Incorporated. Huge family. He had a
lot of kids and grandkids. He always asked for me, so I always caddied for
him. He was like a 12 or 13 handicap. Terrific guy.
One day we were told to make sure we had our shirts and khakis clean,
and we got to caddy for golf pros Jay Hebert, Julius Boros, and George Bayer,
the great big guy. The pros came to get ready for the British Open. They
played for three or four days, and I had the guy from North Carolina, Julius11
Boros. He chain-smoked. A tremendous player. Never practiced. I caddied for
him for two days, and it was just wonderful.. He came from a big family in
North Carolina. He won the PGA. The last day they stayed, because they
couldn’t get off the island because of the fog, we played with them. They
invited us. I got to play with Boros. It was the greatest golf lesson I’ve ever
had in my life. We had a wonderful time.
MR. TOBIN: John, you stayed at the caddy camp at least for the summer or maybe several?
MR. DOWD: I think five summers.
MR. TOBIN: Was it your boys who caddied there?
MR. DOWD: Tom, Dan, and Mike, and then our grandson Ryan caddied there.
MR. TOBIN: So, three generations of Dowds who caddied at Sankaty Head?
MR. DOWD: That’s right. They had a grand time just like we did. It was wonderful. Then
from the beach club, I went to pump gas at the Esso Station on Nantucket,
then got a job as assistant chef at the Harbor House Hotel, which is right at
Nantucket harbor and is still there today. I worked there for two years. The
hardest I ever worked, except for trying cases with you guys. It was
unbelievable how hard you worked. I worked for a guy who had been the head
chef at the Eden Rock Hotel in Miami. He taught me everything there is to
know about cooking, so it was a great experience.
MR. TOBIN: After your days in Boston and Sankaty Head, you moved to McLean, is that
right, where you went to high school?
MR. DOWD: My dad became the executive vice president of Lansburgh’s in Washington,
and that was in 1956 until 1959.12
MR. TOBIN:
MR. DOWD:
Again, he was a relief pitcher. City Stores, Inc. also owned Loveman,
Joseph & Loeb, which was the dominant store in Alabama, in Birmingham,
Montgomery, and Mobile. So, Dad was sent down there to put that back
together, which he did. But it happened to be in the middle of the hottest racial
strife in America. We lived on the side of Red Mountain, and I went to Saint
Bernard College, north of Birmingham, in Cullman, Alabama. It was run by
the Benedictine priests. Looking back, I took a core curriculum for four years
by one of the great teaching orders of the world. It was a tremendous
experience.
Did you find that assisted you later in life as an attorney?
Yes. I always wanted to be a lawyer. For some reason, when I was in high
school, I became enamored with Clarence Darrow. When people were reading
about football, I was reading about Clarence Darrow, and I read every book he
either wrote or was part of. I read transcripts of his most famous trials.
On Nantucket when I worked at the beach club, I got to know Edward Bennett
Williams, and he was a great influence on me. I made his martinis. He had lost
his wife and then married Agnes, who had ten children. They had a big cabana
there which I took care of. Hanging out with him, his stories were just
amazing. At one time he represented Joe McCarthy, Frank Costello, and the
teamster head all at the same time. He was on the front cover of the New York
Post during all these cases. They called him Fast Eddy from Holy Cross. He
was just a down-to-earth, brilliant guy. Later I watched him defend Bobby
Baker in court. So, he was a big influence, but I was taken with Darrow. He
really13
MR. TOBIN:
MR. DOWD:
MR. TOBIN:
MR. DOWD:
did the labor laws of America. He was a labor lawyer out of Chicago and very,
very effective. He would lose in the Supreme Court 8 to 1, and what do you
think he said? One is a majority. Every labor proposition he argued before the
High Court became the law of the land. As you know the Democrats put a lot
of labor laws in. So that’s where I was. I wanted to be a criminal lawyer. I was
just inspired by it, and so that’s where all that started.
So, you went directly from Saint Bernard’s to Emory?
I did.
What was it about Emory that appealed to you?
Well, I just heard good things about it, that it was a quality place. Frankly, my
sidekick and roommate who I just lost the other day, Frank Cox, a great
Marine, went there too, but he only stayed one year. The dean of the law
school told me that even though Cox and I did not come from Ivy League
schools, he thought the grades we had at Saint Bernard, (we were both honor
roll students), was a tremendous foundation for law school.
I didn’t have any difficulty in law school even though I remember having
three administrative law classes at the same time, which kind of drove me
crazy. But it was a great place, and that’s where I met Mrs. Dowd, Carole. Her
father, I didn’t know at the time, had been a trustee of Emory and a great
friend of the dean, Dean Ben Johnson, and Griffin Bell and that crowd of
guys that really put Emory on the map. It was just a wonderful school. People
treated each other well.14
MR. TOBIN:
MR. DOWD:
MR. TOBIN:
MR. DOWD:
MR. TOBIN:
MR. DOWD:
MR. TOBIN:
To get through, I was in charge of a dormitory. I worked my way through.
I was a fair student. I wasn’t like David Tobin.
What years were you at Emory? What year did you graduate?
I finished December 1965, which would have been with the Class of 1966, but
I got through and it was because I got swept off my feet on Lookout Mountain
by this lady.
That would be Carole Folts.
That’s right. She was at night school. She was only one of three girls there.
They were real pioneers. So, we got married June 12, 1965. I just worked. I
kept going to school during the summer, so I knocked off a couple more
quarters, and I got it all done by December 1965. The war was on. Tom was in
the Marines.
Tom is your younger brother.
Yes. He had been at Saint Bernard. He was, by the way, the center forward of
the soccer team. He was All-American center forward for Saint Bernard
College. When he graduated, he went on to the Marines.
Denny, the next down from Tom, was the goalie at Saint Bernard. So,
there were three of us there. Then Denny went on to Fordham. Mom and Dad
had moved to New York, and he played on the football team there. He and
Tom were the sweetest guys you ever met. As I tell you, Dave, the highest
compliment I can pay you is you’re not only a sweetheart, but you’re a lot like
Tom.
Thank you.15
MR. DOWD:
MR. TOBIN:
MR. DOWD:
He just had this wonderful, balanced personality, a big heart. And that’s the
way Tom was. He was just amazing. And, just like Tom, there weren’t enough
girls in the world. They were chasing him all the time.
So, you graduated in December 1965. Tom’s already in the Marines. Where
did you go?
I enlisted in the Marines because I figured if they’re going to shoot at me, I
want to be well-prepared. The draft was going crazy, but I had not received
my draft notice. It was funny. I’ll never forget the guys in my class. A lot of
preppies from Atlanta. They really ragged me about enlisting. But I didn’t
care. I saw what was happening with Tom. Vietnam was hot. That was
December 1965. My friend Frank Cox had just landed with the 12th Marines
Artillery Battery at Danang, so he was in the fight. By the way, he went to law
school for one year and then he joined the Marines. I was in touch with him
and Tom, two people I really loved and admired.
I had to wait 12 weeks before reporting to Quantico for OCS (Officer’s
Candidate School). I worked those 3 months at a law firm in New York City,
Shea & Gould, for a lawyer, a former congressman named L. Gary Clemente.
He represented Queens. He was a hell of a guy. He knew my dad because
dad’s main store was in Queens.
Dad was the president of Gertz department store. They had about six or
seven stores on Long Island, $150 million a year. So, they were a player, and
Dad got to know him. I used to go into Manhattan. I was trying to get into16
shape for the Marines. For those three months, we stayed with Mom and Dad
in Manhasset.
That was a good experience. And Mom and Dad were just terrific. Nora,
Denny, and Pat were home. They were the youngest three siblings. Denny and
Tom had enlisted in the Marines’ Platoon Leaders’ Class (PLC) in college and
were in Officers’ training programs at Quantico.
I shoved off for Quantico in March. Carole had her mother. We had a car,
but we didn’t have a home, so she went to Tennessee with her Mom. They
dropped me off at Quantico, and I went through the 12-week course,
essentially boot camp. In the third week, I was going down the stairwell with
two bags, and I tripped and fractured my right ankle. I was headed for a
clerkship, a clerk typist.
Assigned to our company was a big gunnery sergeant. I told him, I said,
“look, I’ve got to keep going. I don’t have a nickel to my name. I can make
it.” I talked to the Doc, and he said, “you’ll be in a cast for about three weeks.”
I told him on my crutches I can do everything else. Thank God he went to bat
for me. I’ll never forget it. He went to the captain. The captain went to the
major. The major called me over in front of the colonel who was in charge of
the whole class. I looked him in the eye and said, “look, sir, I can make it.”
The third week came, and I got out of my cast. The gunny said I’d have to run
a PRT, physical readiness test, which includes the last run of three miles. I
hadn’t run at all, but I made it. That gunny somehow believed in me. It taught
me a lot about the Marine Corps as to how people stick together.17
So, I graduated, second lieutenant, in May, and then reported to The Basic
School. Tom Dowd was two classes ahead of me at Basic School. That’s
where they train their officers. So, about the second or third week there, Tom
said that they were cutting orders for Vietnam. I said “look, why don’t we flip
for it. If I win, I’ll go.” Well, he won, and that’s why he went. Then they came
to me and said you haven’t passed the bar yet, so how about you go to Naval
Justice School because we need lawyers. And I did. From September to
December, 1966, I was in Newport, Rhode Island, at the Naval Justice School
with Carole and had a wonderful time there and good training. Then I reported
to the legal officer Second Marine Division at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina.
By that time, Tom had shoved off for Camp Pendleton and then on to
Vietnam. He was part of the Third Battalion First Marines. He was in the
Second Platoon, Kilo Company.
Sure enough, I came home one day at LeJeune. It was the first of March. I
was going up to our little house. I’ll never forget. Carole was behind the
screen. I tell you, Dave, it was the saddest day of my life. We lost Tom.
At that time, the anti-war effort was very effective. I was not permitted to
wear my Marine green uniform, any uniform, while I traveled to Washington
for his funeral. It was just unbelievable. So, I wore my blues. That was quite
an occasion. The whole Dowd and Maguire clan and other friends came.
There was a motel that was right near the Pentagon. Dad actually booked the
whole damn thing. That was a big deal.18
MR. TOBIN:
MR. DOWD:
Then I stayed at LeJeune, assigned to the Legal Office of the 2d Marine
Division. I started as a prosecutor, tried courts martial. Then I went to defense
and had a lot of fun with a guy named Joe Dyer who practices in Virginia. I
think he’s retired now. That’s when we adopted Tom and Anne.
That was in 1967?
Tom would have been I think in 1968, and Annie right after that. From the
Catholic nuns in Charlotte, North Carolina. We got those two, and then when
we moved up here, we adopted Sarah. And then later on, we got Dan from
there. We got Mike in Baltimore.
So, I finished up at Camp LeJeune. I had done everything. I had been an
assistant staff legal officer. As a matter of fact, Joe Dyer and I were defense
counsel. They had a jerk as a chief prosecutor. He wanted to court martial
everybody, so we got “not guilty” every case, and we walked 67 guys out of
the brig. Colonel Rumble, the Staff Legal Officer, was a veteran of the
Korean War. He came to me and said, “you are out of here. They created a
new office for you. You’re going to be in charge of Congressional and Special
Interests for the Commanding General of the 2d Marine Division.” “Do I have
a staff?” “No, you don’t have a staff.” So, I went and did that with the CG and
that’s when I got assigned to a Brigade getting ready for Vietnam. They really
needed a brigade. It was commanded by a guy named Colonel Van Bell. His
nickname was Ding Dong, named by the enlisted. He wore three Navy
crosses, three Purple Hearts. His last Navy cross was as the commander of the19
MR. TOBIN:
MR. DOWD:
MR. TOBIN:
MR. DOWD:
First Marines in Vietnam. The First Marines are probably the most famous in
all the fights. We had them in Vietnam. He got wounded, shot in the eye.
Another Purple Heart. He was right up front in the fight. He was a remarkable
guy, one of the greatest leaders I ever met.
We took care of 850 Marines. They got them ready for the fight. We never
lost one of them. No unauthorized absences. It was just a joy hanging out with
him every day. So, it was a really good experience.
They had race issues in the Marine Corps at the time. The General put me
on the Racial Commission to sit these senior White and Black enlisted guys
down to start talking with each other, which we did. I think we were quite
successful. That was a good experience. I got out, and I tried to get a job in
Washington.
How about before you get to Washington, you tried some interesting cases,
didn’t you, as a JAG?
I did.
A murder case maybe?
There was a murder of a baby by its father, an enlisted guy, and that was the
last case I had. The Colonel came to me and said “Skipper”, and I said “aye.”
He said “I don’t know what to do.” “I said what’s the problem, sir.” He said
“no one in the office will take the case.” I said,”I’ll take the case.” So, in the
tradition of Clarence Darrow, I took the case. He had been in the brig so long
he wouldn’t talk to me. It took me a while to get him just to talk to me and tell
me what happened. The main accuser was his wife. I looked into it. My guy
wasn’t20
there when the injuries were inflicted. This was a woman who had that terrible
battering disease. So, I looked into it. I got help from Duke medical school.
We represented this guy in a general court martial. I couldn’t get him to testify
so I did what I could. But they convicted him and sentenced him to life in the
brig up in New Hampshire or Maine. There was no question he was innocent.
He was a man of color. He otherwise had a good record in the Marine Corps. I
told the family I would stick with the case, and of course they got the NAACP.
Finally, those guys, who supposedly knew it all, came to me and said what do
we do. I said, “Well I’ll tell you what we do. We’ll try that case, and he’s
going to go on the stand, and he’s got to talk to me.” I was at the Department
of Justice at the time, but they let me deal with it. He told the story that he was
not there, and we found the grocery store owner in Jacksonville who
remembered seeing him come in to get groceries, and that was the time the
pathologist had already committed as to when the injuries were inflicted. This
baby was bounced off the wall like a basketball.
By the way, when this guy got home with his groceries, there was his baby
laying there all battered. He picked it up like a football. He ran to his car. He
ran the main gate at LeJeune. These guys are armed guards at the gate. He
sped in the car all the way to the hospital.
I got the doctor. I found him. He was at the hospital because it wasn’t a
long period of time by the time I got out, he’d been convicted, and so forth, so
the doctor was still around. So, I asked him to tell me what it was like when
he21
arrived. He said “John, he was like a fullback. He had this tiny baby under his
arm, and he was crying.” He said “this was a Marine, a sergeant or corporal.
They never cry.” He said, “you’ve got to save my baby.” The mother wasn’t
there. She didn’t take him to the hospital. When he finally talked to me, he
said “I didn’t tell you anything because she told me if I said anything, she
would drop the dime on me”, so he was under this threat. So, by God, we
went to trial and in another general court, it got sent back. Ruff Fant handled
the appeal because he was moved by what was going on. He was an appellate
lawyer for the Marine Corps, a wonderful lawyer. We put that thing together,
and he was found not guilty.
I will tell you that I thought the NAACP guys did a very good job, but
they couldn’t get him to talk either, until he saw that we had the grocer and
the doctor sticking up for him. The doctor did not think he had killed the baby.
He said,”look, he didn’t act like a killer. He was trying to save that baby’s
life.”
The other assignment I had, which was unusual, was when I worked for
Congressional and Special Interests, the Commanding General sent me down
to Vieques Island, just off of Puerto Rico. That’s a Marine Corps camp, and
that’s where they practice their landings down in the Caribbean. The chief of
staff called me and said “John, the General is here to see you right now. He
said you’re going to have to move.” I said “what’s the matter.” He said “we’ve
had a riot at Vieques Island, and an investigative officer has been assigned,
but they’re going to charge a black E5. He has a perfect record, a silver star, a
Purple Heart, bronze star, Vietnam, a guy from St. Louis. They’re going to22
charge him with starting a riot.” So, they flew me from Cherry Point to Rosie
Rhodes in Puerto Rico, and then I was assigned my own bird, my own pilot
and crew chief, and they said go. All the operations were on the carrier
Independence sitting off the coast of Vieques Island, so there I go. I had never
landed on a carrier.
A lieutenant colonel or major, or maybe a Navy commander, was the
investigating officer. I tied up with him and said “I’ve got this work. Where’s
sergeant so-and so?” “He’s down below.” I said,”you’ve got to be kidding
me.” I said “look, this guy’s got a perfect record.” They had him next to the
reactor. I mean it was 104 degrees in his cell. I went down there in my
skivvies to talk to this guy. Talk about a perfect Marine. This guy was a
perfect Marine. What was remarkable about him was how cool he was. He
told me what had happened. When the fight broke out, he was up on the hill
taking a shower, had come out, and there was this big fight. He jumped in his
britches, got in his boots, and ran down there to break it up. Well, he did
break it up. There was a brand-new second lieutenant who was the accuser.
This guy was wet behind the ears. I mean he was ridiculous. I got to talk to
him. He had a brand-new brown bar, so he had no experience at all, and he
somehow picked out my guy. So, I demanded a trial, and he said “we’ll have
an Article 32 hearing.” I said “okay, let’s get it on. This thing is nonsense.”
So, in the middle of the night on the carrier Independence, we had an
Article 32 hearing. It’s like a grand jury hearing. We put the sergeant on, and
he told his story, and then I put the brown bar on. He couldn’t remember his23
name. You really kind of felt sorry for him. He just came apart at the seams.
No one had really braced him, you know what I’m saying. So 2:00 in the
morning, he said Skipper, go get a little sleep. I’ll get you at zero six. Sure
enough, they wake me up, and I was in the officer’s quarters on the carrier.
My pilot was there too and everything. They called the prosecutor and said
this charge is dismissed. They said I’ve got to go see the skipper of the carrier
and we’re going to formally apologize.
The other thing about the sergeant is he had just reupped in the Marine
Corps for another five years before this all happened. An absolutely
magnificent guy, he said, “Sir, you’ve got to get me out of this Marine Corps.
I don’t want to become bitter, but I’ve got to get out. I can’t hang around.” I
mean this guy; he was in that cell on that carrier three or four weeks. I mean
104 degrees. He went and saw the captain of the ship, and he was cool, et
cetera. I said “Sir, can I call General Simpson,” and he said sure. He said he
thought the word was already out. I said, “well, he asked me to call him.” So I
called the General at Camp LeJeune, and I told him what happened. He said,
“Skipper, my gut told me there was something funny about that thing.” I asked
permission to bring the Sergeant back with me. He said, “Come on back. I
want to see you as soon as you get back. There’ll be a bird at Rosie Rhodes to
fly you back.” Sure enough, we climbed in the chopper. By the way, the
hospital at Rosie Rhodes was full of guys who got the shit beat out of them.
There were like 32 casualties from this riot.24
MR. TOBIN:
MR. DOWD:
MR. TOBIN:
MR. DOWD:
MR. TOBIN:
Years later, I’m enforcing DOJ Tax subpoenas in St. Louis, and I walk up
the courthouse, and I hear “Hey Skipper, how you doing.” And there he is.
You’re kidding.
He comes running and gives me a big hug. I said, “what are you doing?” He
said, “I’m still in the junk business.” When he got out of the Marine Corps, he
went into the scrap junk business. He said, “I’m making a fortune. I’ll buy
you dinner.” I said “no, I’ve got to take care of this and get back.” That was
unbelievable that we bumped into each other. That was really quite an
experience, and I really love the commander for giving me everything I
wanted, and I told the General, I said put that investigating officer in for
another promotion because I tell you he was a class act. When everything was
so inflamed, he was cool, he was fair. So, another good experience.
Great. I think we got through just before you start your next job, so let’s take a
break here, and we’ll start up with, I guess did you go first to DOJ?
DOJ General Litigation Section. That was the garbage section. The beauty of
the section was you could get both sides in the courtroom. In other words, you
could be defending a case, you could be trying a civil case. It was
enforcement, collecting a lien, collecting money. The other thing was you got
sent all over the country.
Let’s pick up there next time.