Josephine Gardner Text of Interview: August 3, 2006

ORAL HISTORY OF JODIE GARDNER
First Interview, August 3, 2006
This interview of Jodie Gardner is being conducted for the District of Columbia Circuit
Oral History Project on August 3, 2006, at the home of Mrs. Gardner in Washington, D.C. by
Traci Grigg. This is Tape 1.
Mrs. Grigg: Mrs. Gardner can you please state your full name for the record and the year you
were born.
Mrs. Gardner: Josephine McGowan Gardner. I was born in Dover, Massachusetts, in 1920.
Everyone calls me Jodie. Nobody’s allowed to call me Josephine.
Mrs. Grigg: You told me before we started that you used Josephine in one of your marriages.
Mrs. Gardner: My first marriage. I was married by a bishop and I had to do the right thing. So I
said, “I, Josephine, take thee Carl.” But my second marriage I was married by an
Episcopal minister. I said, “Can I use Jodie?” and he said, “Of course.” With my
second husband I married using Jodie.
Mrs. Grigg: Let’s go back to where you were born and talk about your childhood.
Mrs. Gardner: I was the youngest of five children. When I was born all four of my siblings and
my mother had whooping cough. The only people that didn’t were my father and
the nurse.
Mrs. Grigg: My goodness.
Mrs. Gardner: But I didn’t catch whooping cough till the next year. I had it when I was a year
old. I guess that was safer than having it when I was an hour old. And I grew up
in a lovely big house in Dover, Massachusetts. We had hills. We had good
coasting in the winter and there was a pond so we could skate and it was just a
wonderful place to grow up. The reason my parents moved from Boston to
Dover was because there was a very good school, an elementary school.
– 2 –
Mrs. Grigg: Did you and all of your brothers and sisters go to the elementary school?
Mrs. Gardner: They all went there and, of course, I went there long after they did. So, in a way,
I was an only child because I was the end of the line. But on the other hand, I did
have these wonderful brothers and sisters that I looked up to and adored. And I
just had a very happy childhood. In the summers we went to Nahant, MA, which
is one the ocean. We had a big house there and were surrounded by cousins and
friends. Of course, the swimming was wonderful and sailing and tennis. It was a
wonderful place to be in the summer.
Mrs. Grigg: How old was the next youngest sibling?
Mrs. Gardner: Two and a half years old. My brother. He’s the only one left now so we’re very
close and we talk every Saturday.
Mrs. Grigg: That’s nice.
Mrs. Gardner: He’s in Boston.
Mrs. Grigg: Do you have any stories you want to share from your school days? Elementary
school, high school?
Mrs. Gardner: I don’t think I better.
Mrs. Grigg: Yes, you can.
Mrs. Gardner: My granddaughter made a little booklet for Mother’s Day. It was empty. She
sent it to me and said, “Grandma, please write down the naughty things you did
when you were growing up.” So I wrote down a lot of naughty things. I’m very
aware of them but I don’t think I better put them in this particular place.
Mrs. Grigg: You don’t want to share even one?
Mrs. Gardner: No, I don’t think I want to share them. I was naughty, no question about that.
– 3 –
Mrs. Grigg: Are you sure you don’t want to tell us one story?
Mrs. Gardner: Well, all right. We used to have ice cream every Sunday. It would be in an oldfashioned freezer and it would be on the back porch with a dasher and
everything. One Sunday I couldn’t wait for lunch so I went out and I got into the
ice cream freezer. Then after I had my fill I was just running on the back lawn.
My father looked out the window and he saw this little figure and it was covered
with ice cream. So he came out and said, “Where have you been and what have
you been doing?” And I said, “This is paint and I was just in the garage.” “Well,
come and show me the paint,” my father said. So he took me to the garage and
we looked around it. There was green paint and red paint and black paint. But I
couldn’t find any white paint. So the truth came out and I wasn’t allowed any
candy for six weeks.
Mrs. Grigg: What did your father do?
Mrs. Gardner: He was an investment banker.
Mrs. Grigg: In Boston?
Mrs. Gardner: In Boston.
Mrs. Grigg: And your mother?
Mrs. Gardner: My mother was a mother of five and involved in all kinds of charities.
Mrs. Grigg: And your grandparents? Can you talk about your grandparents?
Mrs. Gardner: They were great. My grandfather also started the investment company that my
father went into and then my brother went into.
Mrs. Grigg: And what’s the name of that company?
– 4 –
Mrs. Gardner: Arthur Perry & Company. They lived in a big house on Marlborough Street in
Boston, which we eventually inherited. They also lived in Nahant. In fact, they
owned the houses in Nahant that we went to. I was pretty young then. They died
when I was twelve. My siblings knew them better than I did. But they were very
fine people. They were Quakers.
Mrs. Grigg: Were your parents Quakers too?
Mrs. Gardner: Yes they were.
Mrs. Grigg: So you were raised in a Quaker household?
Mrs. Gardner: I was raised a Quaker but I became an Episcopalian. I’m an Episcopalian and a
Quaker, which is a rather odd combination.
Mrs. Grigg: Did you go to Quaker meetings weekly?
Mrs. Gardner: Not very often because it was in Cambridge and we were in Dover and it was 50
to 60 minutes away. We actually went to a Congregational church in Wellesley
which was only four miles away.
Mrs. Grigg: And your grandparents’ house, was that in Dover or Boston?
Mrs. Gardner: Boston.
Mrs. Grigg: So when your parents inherited it did the family move to Boston or did you stay
in Dover?
Mrs. Gardner: We gave up Nahant. We moved to Boston in the winter and to Dover in the
summer. It was a great blow to me when we gave up Nahant. The other children
were older and had moved on. I was 15 when we left. I loved it. I’ve never quite
gotten over it.
– 5 –
Mrs. Grigg: I can tell. You were born in 1920, is that what you said? What happened when
the Depression hit?
Mrs. Gardner: There were a lot of complaints from my father. A great many. He was not very
fond of Roosevelt. Not a bit fond of Roosevelt. He said he was no businessman.
He complained about him. And then in the end when I wanted to marry Carl
McGowan, Carl thought Roosevelt was just fine. My father had fits about my
marrying Carl. But I went ahead and married him anyway. They gave me a
beautiful wedding. And then, of course, they came around. It was okay.
Mrs. Grigg: When I spoke to you before we started this tape, you had a story about what your
parents objected to about your first husband. Do you want to share it?
Mrs. Gardner: They objected to Carl because, in the first place, he was poor; in the second place,
he was for Roosevelt; in the third place, he went to Dartmouth and my family
were all Harvard; and in the fourth place, he came from the Midwest instead of
Boston or New England. So he was pretty bad. Fortunately, Daddy did live long
enough to know that he was appointed a federal judge. Carl was very involved
with Adlai Stevenson. He was his legal advisor and very involved in the
presidential campaign. Daddy was very impressed about that. So it all worked
out. But it was rough in the beginning.
Mrs. Grigg: In a later session we’ll talk more about the beginning of your marriage and your
interaction with your parents. Did your father get through the Depression without
taking a huge financial hit?
– 6 –
Mrs. Gardner: He got through. But he complained every morning at the breakfast table. But we
didn’t give up anything. I kept going to private school. We kept living in these
nice houses.
Mrs. Grigg: Where did you go to school?
Mrs. Gardner: I went to Charles River School, which was an elementary school: first through
seventh grade, or sixth grade. Then I went to Winsor School in Boston, it’s a
girls’ school. I was in a carpool. Five of us every day. Then I did leave for one
year because this was traditional. Mother sent her daughters to Westtown School,
which was a Quaker boarding school, for one year. Mother’s theory was that
when the daughter was about 13 or 14 she became very difficult and the thing to
do was to send her to boarding school for a year, which was what she did to all
three of us. I think my sisters liked it. I hated it. One reason I hated it was
because my cousin was a very dear friend of mine, we were very close. She went
the year before I did and she hated it. So obviously I arrived hating it. Oddly, my
second husband went to the same school years before I did.
Mrs. Grigg: Isn’t that funny? Small world. So then you came back and you finished up at
Winsor School, and then?
Mrs. Gardner: Then I made my debut. I suppose I have to tell you that.
Mrs. Grigg: Yes, you do.
Mrs. Gardner: I took a whole year off between school and college. I was young, I was 17. My
parents gave me a reception at their Marlborough Street house… It was a
beautiful house. Then they gave me a dance. The rest of the time I went to
dances and teas and lunches. Coming-out was a big thing back in 1937. Only
– 7 –
two serious things, if you could call them serious; I joined the Junior League and
learned something about community service. We debutantes also put on a show
for the benefit of St. Vincent’s Hospital and that was great fun. It was really a
review but it was in a theater. Real stuff, real theater. But that was fun. Those
were the only two things I did that were worthwhile. Fortunately, I had already
been accepted to college, I knew I was going to college the next year. I didn’t
have to worry about that.
Mrs. Grigg: Did you date a lot of young men during that year?
Mrs. Gardner: My brother was two and a half years older than I and we shared friends. His
friends were my friends and my friends were his friends. We did a great deal
together. We went on skiing weekends and things like that. Sort of more of a
group activity than solo. Then the next year I went to Bryn Mawr College, which
I loved, for four years.
Mrs. Grigg: What was your major?
Mrs. Gardner: History of Art. Very pleasant. I had a lot of friends. I liked Bryn Mawr very
much.
Mrs. Grigg: Can you share some stories from Bryn Mawr?
Mrs. Gardner: Stories? (laughing)
Mrs. Grigg: Do you remember any of your professors or your roommates? Did you keep in
touch with college professors?
Mrs. Gardner: I had a little problem, as did some of my friends. In order to graduate, you had to
pass an oral exam in French and German. I wasn’t terribly good at that. Several
of my friends weren’t either. So we went back early in our senior year and stayed
– 8 –
on campus and we tutored in German and French and we took the orals before the
school year started. If we hadn’t passed them we wouldn’t have graduated.
Fortunately we all passed them and we all graduated. But that was intense.
Mrs. Grigg: I can see how that might have been. Did you stay in touch with any of your
roommates over the years? Did everyone drift in different directions?
Mrs. Gardner: I went to Washington because the war was on. We went to save the world! I
lived with six girls. Two of them were my classmates. I remember this
incredible house. We had a fairy godmother, the mother of one of the girls. She
provided a cook and a maid.
Mrs. Grigg: Oh my goodness.
Mrs. Gardner: She provided fresh eggs. She provided kindling wood. She provided an art
collection. Picassos, Modiglianis, Roualls, etc.
Mrs. Grigg: Here in Washington? As a young graduate?
Mrs. Gardner: Yes. Yes.
Mrs. Grigg: Oh my goodness.
Mrs. Gardner: It was incredible, it really was. And the one thing that was fun was that we were
all in different agencies so we all had different stories. It was great.
Mrs. Grigg: Can you explain what agency you were at and where your friends were at?
Mrs. Gardner: I was with OSS. Lettie Crosby was with Louis Douglas who was head of the
Bureau of Ships, maybe. I can’t really remember. Margie McCloud, a classmate,
was in Army decoding. Nancy Zinsser was secretary to Jack McCloy, the
Secretary of the Army. Helen Resor was in the War Shipping Department. It was
– 9 –
great fun. And finally, Lettie, the first one to leave us, went overseas with the Red
Cross.
Mrs. Grigg: Which one of these had the mother who was the fairy godmother?
Mrs. Gardner: Helen Resor. She really was something. What a way to live in the war!
Mrs. Grigg: And where was the house?
Mrs. Gardner: The house was in Georgetown.
Mrs. Grigg: Do you remember the street?
Mrs. Gardner: It was 31 Street. One thing that amuses me to look back on is that it was hot and, st
of course, no air conditioning in those days. So we would take our pillows and
go out and lie on the grass to sleep at night. Can you imagine doing that in
Georgetown today?
Mrs. Grigg: No.
Mrs. Gardner: There was no problem. No fear of anything like that. The only kind of cool air I
remember was that the theaters had pictures of icicles around the outside of the
theater because they were air-conditioned. That was the only thing that was airconditioned in those days and it was hot.
Mrs. Grigg: Were these movie theaters or —
Mrs. Gardner: Movie theaters. We would take the bus to work. One very nice thing was, there
was a house with 12 gentlemen in it and they had a fabulous butler named
Johnson. Now, Johnson and his wife had been with the Dean Achesons as their
help. Then Johnson and his wife split up. Mrs. Acheson felt she could not take
sides. She fired them both. Mr. Acheson had a fit. Johnson was a marvelous
butler. He didn’t want him to be fired at all. But Mrs. Acheson said she would
– 10 –
not take sides. So Johnson went to live with these men and the parties they had
were something.
Mrs. Grigg: And the men were probably all in their 20s or 30s?
Mrs. Gardner: Yes. A lot of them were married because they came to Washington in the war.
Mrs. Grigg: And left their wives back at home?
Mrs. Gardner: Yes. One of those men was Carl McGowan.
Mrs. Grigg: Before we get to how you met Carl McGowan, can you tell me what you did for
the OSS?
Mrs. Gardner: I was in what was called the Foreign Nationalities Branch and we were checking
up on the foreigners in the country, what they were doing, whether they were up
to mischief. That was our job.
Mrs. Grigg: How did you do that? It was pre-computers.
Mrs. Gardner: No, not in those days.
Mrs. Grigg: That’s what I mean. How did you do the checking up?
Mrs. Gardner: We had a large file cabinet with everybody listed in it. Whenever we knew
anything we added it to the file.
Mrs. Grigg: Reading in the paper?
Mrs. Gardner: Read all the foreign papers.
Mrs. Grigg: Did you have to go to embassy parties to get information? Did people call you up
and report on them?
Mrs. Gardner: No. Of course, there was a chairman of each country. Somebody was in charge
of Italy and somebody else was in charge of Germany. It was interesting.
Mrs. Grigg: How long did you do that?
– 11 –
Mrs. Gardner: 1942 to ’44. Just two years, I guess.
Mrs. Grigg: So you were 22 to 24. You had two brothers?
Mrs. Gardner: Two brothers. None of my family was in the war. My family was very lucky.
Now, Finley, my dear brother who is still alive, was a conscientious objector.
Mrs. Grigg: You were Quakers?
Mrs. Gardner: My other brother had eyes that kept him out. I had two brothers-in-law that both
had bad backs. So really we were incredibly lucky. My poor aunt had four sons
and they were all in it. I’m sure she felt a little badly about my family.
Mrs. Grigg: Did all your cousins make it back?
Mrs. Gardner: They all made it back.
Mrs. Grigg: That’s remarkable. Do you want to go to the house with the 12 gentlemen? How
did you meet up with them?
Mrs. Gardner: I met Carl through Alverta, who was my roommate from Philadelphia. She had an
older brother who knew all these people and she invited Carl to dinner when she
had a friend coming down from Philadelphia. So she wanted to have some nice
men for dinner. She invited Carl for Alice Clement, but unfortunately for Alice
Clement, Carl saw me. So that’s how we met.
Mrs. Grigg: She didn’t just invite Carl to dinner, did she invite other men from the house?
Mrs. Gardner: Must have. I don’t remember them. But actually, nothing much happened until
the following spring because there was lots of coming and going. Lots of other
men went overseas and we would make brownies and send them to them. Then I
had a man that sent me a jewel, a beautiful diamond and sapphire pin. And I was
falling in love with Carl. So I did something that I guess was a terrible thing to
– 12 –
do, but I wrapped it up and sent it to his mother. I mean, what do you do? I felt
very moral. (laughing)
Mrs. Grigg: That was a good solution.
Mrs. Gardner: He got word over in Africa that his mother received the pin; he was not very
happy about it. And years later he married a nurse and came back. I always
wondered if she was wearing my pin. It was awfully pretty.
Mrs. Grigg: By then you were already dating Carl?
Mrs. Gardner: Married to him.
Mrs. Grigg: So when did you first meet Carl? When was that first date?
Mrs. Gardner: That was in September. I got there the summer and I met him in September. But
we saw a lot of other people overall and this guy that sent me the diamond pin
and others and the people we were making brownies for, and so forth. Carl was
in the Navy Intelligence but he did not leave, he was in Washington working for
the Secretary of the Navy.
Mrs. Grigg: And so you became a couple in the spring?
Mrs. Gardner: In the spring. I had a lot of trouble getting married, a lot of opposition. But we
got married in January of ’45.
Mrs. Grigg: Let’s go back to your courtship. What sort of things would you do when you
were dating?
Mrs. Gardner: He would borrow a car because he was poor.
Mrs. Grigg: He didn’t have a Picasso in his house?
Mrs. Gardner: No! He borrowed his roommate’s car. Although he had no money, he took me
dancing a few times. It was a little hard for us.
– 13 –
Mrs. Grigg: You would just spend time walking?
Mrs. Gardner: Well, I guess we went walking. I remember once we went canoeing down where
they used to have a concert at the Watergate. Everybody would sit on the steps
and we were in the canoe. Alverta and another guy would canoe with us. Alverta
and I giggled all the way because it was so hard on them. They weren’t used to
this.
Mrs. Grigg: Carl was in Navy Intelligence, was he able to talk about his work much with you?
Mrs. Gardner: I don’t think so.
Mrs. Grigg: In later years did he share it with you once it was no longer classified?
Mrs. Gardner: He worked for Adlai Stevenson in the Navy. That’s where he sort of started that
relationship. But I don’t remember much about it.
Mrs. Grigg: Where did you get married?
Mrs. Gardner: Carl is from Paris, Illinois. My father said I could not marry him until I went out
to Paris, Illinois, and met his parents. So I got on the train and I went out to
Paris, Illinois, and he met me and took me to meet his parents. Then we went
uptown in Paris and we ran into a leading citizen and he said, “Oh, you’ve come
out to look us over have you?” He was so right! And, anyway, I did that. Then
when I was going home my friend Barbara McNomee, who lived in Albany,
invited me to come and visit her. So my train from Paris, Illinois, went right
through Albany where she lived so I just got off there. She thought that I was
coming from Boston. She was on the track where the trains were coming from
Boston, whereas I was on the track over where they were coming from Paris,
Illinois. It was quite funny. She finally caught on.
– 14 –
Mrs. Grigg: Did Carl make this trip with you?
Mrs. Gardner: No, he was going out to California. He was involved in oil in naval oil fields. We
went our separate ways. He left Paris to go to California and I left Paris to go to
Albany.
Mrs. Grigg: When you went to Paris were you already engaged?
Mrs. Gardner: Yes, I guess, except we weren’t allowed to be.
Mrs. Grigg: Was there a formal moment when he asked you to marry him or did you just
understand it was going to happen?
Mrs. Gardner: I got married in January.
Mrs. Grigg: And in the fall were you both in D.C. then?
Mrs. Gardner: I was at home.
Mrs. Grigg: You were in Boston and had left the OSS?
Mrs. Gardner: Because Carl was furious at them and my parents were furious at him and I was
in the middle. It was a very unhappy time for me I can tell you. Well, anyway, it
all turned out fine. They gave me a lovely wedding, I have to say that.
Mrs. Grigg: Did your siblings come to your rescue? Did they weigh in on this?
Mrs. Gardner: They weren’t particularly helpful.
Mrs. Grigg: And you were married in Boston? And that was January of 1945. Then did you
go from there to Chicago or come back to D.C.?
Mrs. Gardner: We came back to D.C. because he was still in the Navy. Then when he got out of
the Navy he went into a law firm in Washington for a couple of years. And then
we went to Chicago and he went back to Northwestern Law School where he had
been teaching before the war.
– 15 –
Mrs. Grigg: When he was in the Navy he was already a lawyer? Where had he gone to law
school?
Mrs. Gardner: Columbia.
Mrs. Grigg: So how much older was Judge McGowan than you?
Mrs. Gardner: Nine years.
Mrs. Grigg: Do you remember the name of the law firm in D.C.?
Mrs. Gardner: No.
Mrs. Grigg: By then had you started having your children?
Mrs. Gardner: Yes. I had a baby in ten months. Mary was born in D.C.
Mrs. Grigg: Did you socialize with the law firm wives?
Mrs. Gardner: Not particularly. It was a very small firm, for starters.
Mrs. Grigg: You could stay out of the politics of it then? And when did you move to
Chicago? What year was that?
Mrs. Gardner: 1948.
Mrs. Grigg: I’m sorry, when you went to Chicago he went to teach at Northwestern? Is that
the reason for going to Chicago?
Mrs. Gardner: Yes. By then I had two children. Two little girls. He had the most dreadful
house for me.
Mrs. Grigg: In Chicago or here?
Mrs. Gardner: In Chicago. In Evanston, Illinois. He rented this house. It was a big house. It
was awful. Mother and Daddy sent me out with a temporary nurse for the two
girls which was very nice. And when we arrived at Chicago in this house, the
first night we caught seven mice in the fireplace! That should tell you something.
– 16 –
It was just a dreadful house. We lived there about six dreary months and then we
bought a house in Wilmette. We moved into this house in April. And then in
August we went back to Dover, Massachusetts, where my parents were living to
visit. We went out to cocktails at my brother’s house in Dover. There was a
telephone call for Carl and he came back and said, “Well, I‘m going to
Springfield. That was Governor Adlai Stevenson, he wants me to come to
Springfield to be his lawyer.” I said, “What about me?” He went to Springfield
and left me and the two girls in this house in Wilmette where I didn’t know
anybody. And he had a wonderful time. He lived in the governor’s mansion. He
had all his meals with the governor, which was wonderful.
Mrs. Grigg: He was in the governor’s mansion?
Mrs. Gardner: Yes. The governor was the best company in the world. All these people from all
around the world came to visit. And Carl loved it. I was up there in Wilmette
with two children, no help, didn’t know anybody, didn’t have any sitters. We
didn’t have television in those days. How did I survive?
Mrs. Grigg: Was he able to visit you on the weekends?
Mrs. Gardner: Oh yes. He came home every weekend. He had the best of both worlds. He
really did. And he was supposed to be looking for a house. But why should he
look for a house? He was in heaven. Finally in April — Mary, meanwhile, was in
junior kindergarten – so in April I went down and found a house right away and
then in June when Mary was through kindergarten we moved down.
Mrs. Grigg: And Carl had to move out of the mansion?
– 17 –
Mrs. Gardner: Yes he did. He still worked there, had lunch there. We both went there quite
often.
Mrs. Grigg: What was he doing for the governor then?
Mrs. Gardner: Everything.
Mrs. Grigg: He was his right-hand man?
Mrs. Gardner: Yes.
Mrs. Grigg: This is before he ran for president.
Mrs. Gardner: He was governor. He ran for president in 1952. Carl went down there in 1950.
Mrs. Grigg: He moved to Springfield in 1950?
Mrs. Gardner: I guess so. John was born somewhere along there. I can’t remember which year
he was born in. He was born in Springfield.
Mrs. Grigg: In Springfield, did you develop your own group of friends?
Mrs. Gardner: We were pretty connected with the mansion. The governor had a lot of friends.
All sorts of people from all around the world came. We would always go to
dinners. One nice thing, I did have a very good sitter.
Mrs. Grigg: Did you develop your own group of women friends separate from the mansion?
Mrs. Gardner: They were part of the mansion.
Mrs. Grigg: Do you want to tell some stories about the world leaders you met?
Mrs. Gardner: It was pretty exciting. You see, Harry Truman announced that he was not going
to run in February. Then everybody, the whole country, turned to Adlai. He
faced a great deal of pressure. We took a trip in June out to the West Coast for
him to give a speech. By then he was being considered by everyone. He gave a
speech in Portland. Then we were to go down to see the governor of California.
– 18 –
This couple said they would drive us to San Francisco. So we started out driving
to San Francisco – the governor, Carl and me, and this man and his wife. The
governor could see that this was not going to work out. So after about a half an
hour he and Carl got out and got on a plane and flew, leaving me with this
dreadful couple driving on. We drove through the mountains in the dark and the
car lights went out. It was the most horrendous trip of my life. We stayed in a
motel. Then the next day as we were driving into San Francisco, he hit a woman!
Mrs. Grigg: A pedestrian or a car?
Mrs. Gardner: A pedestrian. He stopped. He finally dropped me off at my hotel.
Mrs. Grigg: Did you speak to your husband?
Mrs. Gardner: When they arrived I gave them quite a story of what I’d gone through. We had a
good time in San Francisco once they got there.
Mrs. Grigg: When you went from Chicago out to Portland, did you fly?
Mrs. Gardner: We flew. Then from San Francisco we went down to Santa Barbara.
Mrs. Grigg: When you flew from Chicago to Portland were you on a private governor’s plane
or commercial?
Mrs. Gardner: Commercial. But then we were on a State of Illinois plane. We had lunch with
Bob Hutchins, the president of the University of Chicago. Hutchins said, “I think
Taft is going to be the candidate.” I said, “Is that your opinion or did somebody
tell you?” Carl’s and the governor’s mouths fell open. You don’t say that to Bob
Hutchins. And Carl teased me about that the rest of my life.
Mrs. Grigg: Sounds fine to me. I was going to ask you that when you were sitting at meals
with all this political talk, did you speak up? You are a very forthright person.
– 19 –
Mrs. Gardner: Well I apparently did!
[STOPPED THE TAPE]
Mrs. Gardner: There was a lot of pressure, a lot of people coming from all over the country to
urge Stevenson to run. Remember I had three children.
Mrs. Grigg: Who stayed with your children when you went out to California to do the West
Coast trip?
Mrs. Gardner: This comes later. I have a terrible story where Carl and I went out as soon as we
lost the election out there in Arizona with Adlai. As I went out the door the sitter
asked me, “When do the children get their aspirin?” I didn’t find that very
reassuring. And the night before we came home they stayed up all night!
Mrs. Grigg: You came home to very cranky children then.
Mrs. Gardner: It was a little bit of a problem, but I got sitters because I traveled during the
campaign.
Mrs. Grigg: Let me ask you before we get to the campaign which we will do the next sessions,
when Carl was working for the governor where did your children go to school?
Some of them were babies but at least Mary was old enough.
Mrs. Gardner: Mary went to public school. She was in kindergarten. I guess Becky went to a
nursery school. John was a baby.
Mrs. Grigg: I think this might be a good stopping point. Then we’ll pick up next time with the
campaign.
[THIS ENDS THE FIRST SESSION]